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Phyllis Griffin interview transcript, December 21, 2004

names, etc. Um, I think 4th street was basically the working poor. So they also had an understanding somewhat of uh, discrimination in regards to class. I didn't find them to be offensive. But certainly there was a demarcation line. Like the apartment building that was on 4th street right behind us never let any African Americans rent in that Apartment building, it was a policy.

NL: restrictive covenant?

PG: Uh huh. And um, my mother always made sure that within our house, um, we were never made to feel, uh, like second class citizens. That uh, the opportunities were limitless. Yes, there was bigotry and hatred and violence, but we were living in a relatively safe area called Des Moines Iowa. She made us very aware of violent African American history through the poetry of Sterling Brown, "They don't come by ones, they don't come by twos, they come by tens."

NL: Is that the name of a poem?

PG: Mm hmm. I'm not sure if that is the official name, I just remember listening to the recording and understanding what was going on at the age of five.

NL: That's great. I'm going to definitely look that poem up. Um...I guess that leads us to the seconds question. Did you sense that [you're crossed out with "your" written in over it] opportunities were unlimited, or was there a sense that being black AND a woman confine your possibilities?

PG: No, I was a kid that, uh, like my brother and my sister I believe, that just...anything was possible. Despite what people thought. And that you cannot judge another by the color of their skin, or their class status. And even those that are bigots are grappling with an internal pain that have nothing to do with who we are.

NL: That's a really good point...Um...your mother received a lot of recognition for her efforts against Katz in 1998 as we mentioned, Governor Vilsack came and gave a speech and there were other dignitaries there. How well known was her movement before this commemoration? I noticed while doing my research...suddenly in 1998 there is a plethora of resources available, but up to that time there's very little. So, do you remember there being much recognition for her activism before this time?

PG: No. There were churches in the area who would ask her to come and speak. There were churches and schools in Iowa, elementary schools in particular I believe, who asked her to come and speak. This would have been in the 70s. So there must have been some knowledge about her. But I think she was talking, at that time, to children about the importance of being who they are, giving them exposure to who she was, as an African American. And the biggest thing, at the end of the talk, was he allowing them to get out of their seats and touch her hair.

NL: What was significant about that?

Saving...

names, etc. Um, I think 4th street was basically the working poor. So they also had an understanding somewhat of uh, discrimination in regards to class. I didn't find them to be offensive. But certainly there was a demarcation line. Like the apartment building that was on 4th street right behind us never let any African Americans rent in that Apartment building, it was a policy. NL: restrictive covenant? PG: Uh huh. And um, my mother always made sure that within our house, um, we were never made to feel, uh, like second class citizens. That uh, the opportunities were limitless. Yes, there was bigotry and hatred and violence, but we were living in a relatively safe area called Des Moines Iowa. She made us very aware of violent African American history through the poetry of Sterling Brown, "They don't come by ones, they don't come by twos, they come by tens." NL: Is that the name of a poem? PG: Mm hmm. I'm not sure if that is the official name, I just remember listening to the recording and understanding what was going on at the age of five. NL: That's great. I'm going to definitely look that poem up. Um...I guess that leads us to the seconds question. Did you sense that [you're crossed out with "your" written in over it] opportunities were unlimited, or was there a sense that being black AND a woman confine your possibilities? PG: No, I was a kid that, uh, like my brother and my sister I believe, that just...anything was possible. Despite what people thought. And that you cannot judge another by the color of their skin, or their class status. And even those that are bigots are grappling with an internal pain that have nothing to do with who we are. NL: That's a really good point...Um...your mother received a lot of recognition for her efforts against Katz in 1998 as we mentioned, Governor Vilsack came and gave a speech and there were other dignitaries there. How well known was her movement before this commemoration? I noticed while doing my research...suddenly in 1998 there is a plethora of resources available, but up to that time there's very little. So, do you remember there being much recognition for her activism before this time? PG: No. There were churches in the area who would ask her to come and speak. There were churches and schools in Iowa, elementary schools in particular I believe, who asked her to come and speak. This would have been in the 70s. So there must have been some knowledge about her. But I think she was talking, at that time, to children about the importance of being who they are, giving them exposure to who she was, as an African American. And the biggest thing, at the end of the talk, was he allowing them to get out of their seats and touch her hair. NL: What was significant about that?