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Phyllis Griffin interview transcript, December 21, 2004

15

money. and his father just turned to him one day and said, "You have to go." And I think he headed down the highway, um, you know, with the few belongings that he has and ended yup at a farm owned by a Captain Railey. That name... it's not 'Riley' but "Railey", called him "Captain Railey." And good Captain Railey allowed my grandfather to live in his barn with the horses, and become a horse groomer. And as he was grooming, learning about horse grooming business, it became evident that he had a way with horses, and they allowed him to start training the horses. And they discovered that he had an incredible talent for training show horses and work horses. And started to trust him to ride with the horses to the East Coast, after they had been sold, to show the new owners what they needed to do in the care taking of the horse. And he became known on the East Coast for his ability with horses, his way with horses, and someone approached him and said to him, "would you like to become a foreman" uh, for this farm in New Hampshire. And he went to take a look at it, and decided "yeah" and eventually became the foreman of two farms. So that's how he landed there. 

NL: Hmmm. Talent carried him very far, and uh, yeah to far away places. Um, how do you think that, how aware to do you think your mother was of gender issues in 1948, when.. when she was leading this movement against Katz?

PG: I think she knew that people felt that she was a woman that needed to stay home and shut up. But she had run into that before, and she didn't care. You can think that if you want to, but that didn't stop her. 

NL: If I recall, in the, in the testimony for one of the court cases revolving around Katz one of the lawyers for the, for Katz, he used the phrase, uh, likee a "black Joan of Arc" to describe your mother?

PG: Yeah

NL: OK. That's a very... 

PG: That's good. That's wonderful. I love that. 

NL: .. interesting phrase. 

PG: I love that phrase. That's wonderful! Yeah she, she was! She was a Black Joan of Arc. That's wonderful. I hadn't heard that phrase ever. Interesting.. oh my gosh.. one of my very good friends met my mom and dad once, when they were in their seventies and from that meeting she gave me two drawings, beautiful colorings, one of my mother which was, she portrayed her as Joan of Arc

NL: Huh

PG: So I have a picture of a Black Joan of Arc

NL: I don't know if I have this one here or not (leafing through notes), but I definitely recall that phrase sticking out.

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15 money. and his father just turned to him one day and said, "You have to go." And I think he headed down the highway, um, you know, with the few belongings that he has and ended yup at a farm owned by a Captain Railey. That name... it's not 'Riley' but "Railey", called him "Captain Railey." And good Captain Railey allowed my grandfather to live in his barn with the horses, and become a horse groomer. And as he was grooming, learning about horse grooming business, it became evident that he had a way with horses, and they allowed him to start training the horses. And they discovered that he had an incredible talent for training show horses and work horses. And started to trust him to ride with the horses to the East Coast, after they had been sold, to show the new owners what they needed to do in the care taking of the horse. And he became known on the East Coast for his ability with horses, his way with horses, and someone approached him and said to him, "would you like to become a foreman" uh, for this farm in New Hampshire. And he went to take a look at it, and decided "yeah" and eventually became the foreman of two farms. So that's how he landed there. NL: Hmmm. Talent carried him very far, and uh, yeah to far away places. Um, how do you think that, how aware to do you think your mother was of gender issues in 1948, when.. when she was leading this movement against Katz? PG: I think she knew that people felt that she was a woman that needed to stay home and shut up. But she had run into that before, and she didn't care. You can think that if you want to, but that didn't stop her. NL: If I recall, in the, in the testimony for one of the court cases revolving around Katz one of the lawyers for the, for Katz, he used the phrase, uh, likee a "black Joan of Arc" to describe your mother? PG: Yeah NL: OK. That's a very... PG: That's good. That's wonderful. I love that. NL: .. interesting phrase. PG: I love that phrase. That's wonderful! Yeah she, she was! She was a Black Joan of Arc. That's wonderful. I hadn't heard that phrase ever. Interesting.. oh my gosh.. one of my very good friends met my mom and dad once, when they were in their seventies and from that meeting she gave me two drawings, beautiful colorings, one of my mother which was, she portrayed her as Joan of Arc NL: Huh PG: So I have a picture of a Black Joan of Arc NL: I don't know if I have this one here or not (leafing through notes), but I definitely recall that phrase sticking out.