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Campus "Unrest" demonstrations and consequences, 1970-1971

1971-11-12 American Report: Review of Religion and American Power Page 19

AMERICAN REPORT   15-S
'It Could Happen To Their Children, Too. They Should Realize That'

(Cont. from p. 14-S)
area of the guards to make sure he inflamed them properly. Mr. Rhodes was running for an office and he was going to show that law and order was going to be achieved in Ohio.
 
[italics] Do you see any relationship between Kent State and the events surrounding say, Attica or My Lai? I think the ties between Orangeburg, Kent State, and Jackson State are obvious, but you might want to elaborate on that.
   Mr. Krause: At Attica there were hostages being held. Orangeburg happened in the dark of the night. Jackson State was at night. Kent State was at high noon-broad daylight. The closest one who was killed was 250 feet. Our children were all down there in that morass, and they could see, and they fired.
   Mr. Scheuer: I would say that these incidents were carried out for political purposes. They have no morals any more. It's like the Machiavellian theory that everything is allowed in politics, even evil deeds. The end justifies the means.
   Mrs. Schroeder: It's wrong to go that far, but I think we need to realize that it could possibly go even farther. I think that every teamster and every sanitation worker who goes on strike from now on has to worry about bullets from the National Guard if they're called. I don't think they can feel any safer than Kent students.

[italics]Do you feel that any citizen no matter who he is, young or old...
   Mrs. Schroeder: If he's going to condone what happened at Kent State, or what happened at Attica, or Orangeburg, or Jackson, then he has to think it can happen to him too.
   Mr. Sindell: This isn't the first time in American history that students have been shot on a college campus. The only difference is that before they have more frequently been black. I mention that because some black people have asked me why I am so shocked, and why everybody is so worked up when it has happened to black people. I think it's curious that when it comes to the white, middle class that it's at that time everybody is shocked and upset about it. In a way, if it had to happen at Jackson State it's good that the Jackson-Kent issues are seen as corollaries.
   I think that it's unfortunate, but the black community stands to greatly benefit by the tragedy that had befallen the middle class white community by virtue of the leverage that the middle-class white community has.
   Mr. Krause: You say "leverage." We know it's not much.
   Mr. Sindell: Shock value is probably a better word for it. It's so shocking to so many people that some nice students were shot on a college campus because they're able to identify with it, but somehow they can't make the same identification in a different context. But then again they couldn't believe that they were nice students.
 
[italics] Peter Davies read to me excerpts from a letter he received from Barry Levine who was with Allison Krause when she was shot. Barry was responding to the Attica tragedy. His analysis and perceptions were lucid and sensitive, but his basic attitude was one of despair and cynicism. Do you see any signs on the horizon that things will get better in this country, that peace and justice will become a reality, and not just an ideal?[/italics]
   Mr. Scheuer: I think it reflects the whole future of America. The younger generation is depressed now and they do not dare to open their mouths because they are afraid they will be shot.

[italics] And that's the reason, Mr. Scheuer and Mrs. Schroeder, you were saying that the quietness on the campus isn't necessarily that a lesson was learned. It's something else?[/italics]
   Mr. Scheuer: No, it's frightening because we will go backward in our cultural and scientific struggle. If there is no dissent there is no progress, because only dissent will bring the people to progress. I think this is something which will affect the whole future of America.
   Mrs. Schroeder: I don't think the students are afraid now. And I don't think they're sitting back. I think that they know now that they have to be better prepared for what they want to do, that they have to stud, whether it's history, or whether it's just gaining a little bit more experience in day-to-day living, in day-to-day combat with the older generation. Maybe they know now that they're not ready to handle it.
   The young people now have the vote. Now whether the vote for the 18-21-year-olds is a trap for one side or the other, I don't know. Either the students are going to get trapped into a feeling of power because they have the vote, or the Government is trapping itself by giving them the vote which makes it easier for them to change the system. The young people know now that that's what has to be done. For example, the grand jury system, someone argued, is outdated. Well, that's the type of thing that the young people might pick up-the young lawyers, the ones under 30.
   Mr. Krause: I think what we're doing has made a difference, is going to continue to make a difference. The system can be made to work.

[italics] You still believe that?[/italics]
   Mr. Krause: I believe it, but we have to do some changing. But basically there is no better system in the world.

[italics] Some people believe that your pursuit for justice is based on a desire for revenge. Assuming that even though your grief is mixed with anger do you think that revenge is a primary motivation?[/italics]
   Mrs. Schroeder: I want the truth. I want the truth about Bill's death to be made a part of a court record. People ask then, "why do you sue for money?" And the answer is that it's the only avenue into court, and we want our day in court.
   Mr. Krause: Our children are gone. But the memorial we can give these kids-and I want a memorial for them so we can get rid of the Divine Right of Kings. I didn't realize that I couldn't sue the State until this particular incident. I don't want somebody who is an elected official abusing his power, or forcing other people to abuse theirs. Such a man should get a slap on the wrist.
   It's a shame that we the parents have to go in as the prosecuting attorney. If my daughter had stripped herself naked and walked into a den of iniquity and had been raped, there would have been some kind of a trial. But because our children were killed by National Guardsmen...well, it's unbelievable to me. I don't want vengence against those people. I don't want any money.
   Mrs. Schroeder: I don't want any National Guardsman to go to prison. He was pushed into a situation; if he couldn't handle it maybe it's his own fault, maybe it's as much my fault because I live in Ohio and I voted for Rhodes.

[italics] But you feel levels of responsibility need to be determined, and this is really part of what you are seeking-a determination of responsibility? But you wouldn't call it revenge?[/italics]
   Mr. Scheuer: No, but I'd like to find out who the guilty ones are, and they should at least be identified.
   Mr. Krause: Wearing a uniform doesn't give one a right to murder, and whether that occurred is something which ought to be fully investigated.
   Mrs. Schroeder: I mean the lady in Toledo who walked around with a sign saying "The Kent State Four Should Have Studied More." I want her to know...
   Mr. Krause: What does she know about our children study?
   Mr. Sindell: One brief thought. I want to say that I am personally optimistic that what we are going to do has to be done, and that this Government and the courts are going to respond favorably sooner or later. I think we're seeing the beginnings now. I think we're going to see a lot more. And public opinion is going to change, and I'm really encouraged by the possibilities that this case has of galvanizing and really changing, not just the opinion of a single case, but of making a tremendous impact on the consciousness of the entire nation-especially as Kent State relates to what actually can happen under these circumstances, and toward understanding the risks that we take in the pursuit of violence in this country. I think this case has enormous potential; and we haven't even scratched the surface yet.
   Mrs. Schroeder: I'm optimistic too. In Lorain (Ohio), the unemployment rate is twice the rest of the country. Our daughter's mother-in-law was in the biggest drug store in town and heard loud voices over the soda fountain. It was the lady behind the counter and two unemployed black men discussing the issue. These two men were loud in their criticism of the Government, and Kent, and murder, and agreed that something should be done. Now, if it's gotten down to that level-across the racial barrier, across the union barrier...
   It's the Union Hall gossip in Lorain two months after Bill died that he was transformed form a blue-eyed blond into a black-haired, bearded hippie. The father of one of his friends cornered a man in a bowling alley who was talking out and made him stand up. Everybody stopped bowling and he said, "Now I'm going to tell you the truth. You listen and everybody else listen." I think that that is the type of thing that's going to sway public opinion. If we can keep it from being dead news, maybe it will eventually work its way up...
   Mr. Krause: I agree with you.
 
[italics] A final question: 17 months have passed since that tragic day at Kent State. Looking back, do you have any thoughts you would like to share with parents of college-age sons and daughters who must cope with the frustrations, anxieties, and, often, the despair of the violent and uncertain times in which we live?[/italics]
   Mr. Krause: Do a lot more listening and less dogmatic talking.
   Mrs. Schroeder: Our grandson was one-month old to the day when Bill died. I think if you can tell them to keep their minds open as far as their children are concerned-and listen.
   Mr. Scheuer: It could happen to their children too. They should realize that.

Saving...

AMERICAN REPORT 15-S 'It Could Happen To Their Children, Too. They Should Realize That' (Cont. from p. 14-S) area of the guards to make sure he inflamed them properly. Mr. Rhodes was running for an office and he was going to show that law and order was going to be achieved in Ohio. [italics] Do you see any relationship between Kent State and the events surrounding say, Attica or My Lai? I think the ties between Orangeburg, Kent State, and Jackson State are obvious, but you might want to elaborate on that. Mr. Krause: At Attica there were hostages being held. Orangeburg happened in the dark of the night. Jackson State was at night. Kent State was at high noon-broad daylight. The closest one who was killed was 250 feet. Our children were all down there in that morass, and they could see, and they fired. Mr. Scheuer: I would say that these incidents were carried out for political purposes. They have no morals any more. It's like the Machiavellian theory that everything is allowed in politics, even evil deeds. The end justifies the means. Mrs. Schroeder: It's wrong to go that far, but I think we need to realize that it could possibly go even farther. I think that every teamster and every sanitation worker who goes on strike from now on has to worry about bullets from the National Guard if they're called. I don't think they can feel any safer than Kent students. [italics]Do you feel that any citizen no matter who he is, young or old... Mrs. Schroeder: If he's going to condone what happened at Kent State, or what happened at Attica, or Orangeburg, or Jackson, then he has to think it can happen to him too. Mr. Sindell: This isn't the first time in American history that students have been shot on a college campus. The only difference is that before they have more frequently been black. I mention that because some black people have asked me why I am so shocked, and why everybody is so worked up when it has happened to black people. I think it's curious that when it comes to the white, middle class that it's at that time everybody is shocked and upset about it. In a way, if it had to happen at Jackson State it's good that the Jackson-Kent issues are seen as corollaries. I think that it's unfortunate, but the black community stands to greatly benefit by the tragedy that had befallen the middle class white community by virtue of the leverage that the middle-class white community has. Mr. Krause: You say "leverage." We know it's not much. Mr. Sindell: Shock value is probably a better word for it. It's so shocking to so many people that some nice students were shot on a college campus because they're able to identify with it, but somehow they can't make the same identification in a different context. But then again they couldn't believe that they were nice students. [italics] Peter Davies read to me excerpts from a letter he received from Barry Levine who was with Allison Krause when she was shot. Barry was responding to the Attica tragedy. His analysis and perceptions were lucid and sensitive, but his basic attitude was one of despair and cynicism. Do you see any signs on the horizon that things will get better in this country, that peace and justice will become a reality, and not just an ideal?[/italics] Mr. Scheuer: I think it reflects the whole future of America. The younger generation is depressed now and they do not dare to open their mouths because they are afraid they will be shot. [italics] And that's the reason, Mr. Scheuer and Mrs. Schroeder, you were saying that the quietness on the campus isn't necessarily that a lesson was learned. It's something else?[/italics] Mr. Scheuer: No, it's frightening because we will go backward in our cultural and scientific struggle. If there is no dissent there is no progress, because only dissent will bring the people to progress. I think this is something which will affect the whole future of America. Mrs. Schroeder: I don't think the students are afraid now. And I don't think they're sitting back. I think that they know now that they have to be better prepared for what they want to do, that they have to stud, whether it's history, or whether it's just gaining a little bit more experience in day-to-day living, in day-to-day combat with the older generation. Maybe they know now that they're not ready to handle it. The young people now have the vote. Now whether the vote for the 18-21-year-olds is a trap for one side or the other, I don't know. Either the students are going to get trapped into a feeling of power because they have the vote, or the Government is trapping itself by giving them the vote which makes it easier for them to change the system. The young people know now that that's what has to be done. For example, the grand jury system, someone argued, is outdated. Well, that's the type of thing that the young people might pick up-the young lawyers, the ones under 30. Mr. Krause: I think what we're doing has made a difference, is going to continue to make a difference. The system can be made to work. [italics] You still believe that?[/italics] Mr. Krause: I believe it, but we have to do some changing. But basically there is no better system in the world. [italics] Some people believe that your pursuit for justice is based on a desire for revenge. Assuming that even though your grief is mixed with anger do you think that revenge is a primary motivation?[/italics] Mrs. Schroeder: I want the truth. I want the truth about Bill's death to be made a part of a court record. People ask then, "why do you sue for money?" And the answer is that it's the only avenue into court, and we want our day in court. Mr. Krause: Our children are gone. But the memorial we can give these kids-and I want a memorial for them so we can get rid of the Divine Right of Kings. I didn't realize that I couldn't sue the State until this particular incident. I don't want somebody who is an elected official abusing his power, or forcing other people to abuse theirs. Such a man should get a slap on the wrist. It's a shame that we the parents have to go in as the prosecuting attorney. If my daughter had stripped herself naked and walked into a den of iniquity and had been raped, there would have been some kind of a trial. But because our children were killed by National Guardsmen...well, it's unbelievable to me. I don't want vengence against those people. I don't want any money. Mrs. Schroeder: I don't want any National Guardsman to go to prison. He was pushed into a situation; if he couldn't handle it maybe it's his own fault, maybe it's as much my fault because I live in Ohio and I voted for Rhodes. [italics] But you feel levels of responsibility need to be determined, and this is really part of what you are seeking-a determination of responsibility? But you wouldn't call it revenge?[/italics] Mr. Scheuer: No, but I'd like to find out who the guilty ones are, and they should at least be identified. Mr. Krause: Wearing a uniform doesn't give one a right to murder, and whether that occurred is something which ought to be fully investigated. Mrs. Schroeder: I mean the lady in Toledo who walked around with a sign saying "The Kent State Four Should Have Studied More." I want her to know... Mr. Krause: What does she know about our children study? Mr. Sindell: One brief thought. I want to say that I am personally optimistic that what we are going to do has to be done, and that this Government and the courts are going to respond favorably sooner or later. I think we're seeing the beginnings now. I think we're going to see a lot more. And public opinion is going to change, and I'm really encouraged by the possibilities that this case has of galvanizing and really changing, not just the opinion of a single case, but of making a tremendous impact on the consciousness of the entire nation-especially as Kent State relates to what actually can happen under these circumstances, and toward understanding the risks that we take in the pursuit of violence in this country. I think this case has enormous potential; and we haven't even scratched the surface yet. Mrs. Schroeder: I'm optimistic too. In Lorain (Ohio), the unemployment rate is twice the rest of the country. Our daughter's mother-in-law was in the biggest drug store in town and heard loud voices over the soda fountain. It was the lady behind the counter and two unemployed black men discussing the issue. These two men were loud in their criticism of the Government, and Kent, and murder, and agreed that something should be done. Now, if it's gotten down to that level-across the racial barrier, across the union barrier... It's the Union Hall gossip in Lorain two months after Bill died that he was transformed form a blue-eyed blond into a black-haired, bearded hippie. The father of one of his friends cornered a man in a bowling alley who was talking out and made him stand up. Everybody stopped bowling and he said, "Now I'm going to tell you the truth. You listen and everybody else listen." I think that that is the type of thing that's going to sway public opinion. If we can keep it from being dead news, maybe it will eventually work its way up... Mr. Krause: I agree with you. [italics] A final question: 17 months have passed since that tragic day at Kent State. Looking back, do you have any thoughts you would like to share with parents of college-age sons and daughters who must cope with the frustrations, anxieties, and, often, the despair of the violent and uncertain times in which we live?[/italics] Mr. Krause: Do a lot more listening and less dogmatic talking. Mrs. Schroeder: Our grandson was one-month old to the day when Bill died. I think if you can tell them to keep their minds open as far as their children are concerned-and listen. Mr. Scheuer: It could happen to their children too. They should realize that.